[Design] thought: remove infobox invocations entirely

Discussion:

Amir E. Aharoni

2014-08-12 21:26:00 UTC

Just an idea inspired by Brandon's Wikimania talk and some discussions at
Wikidata-L: We can completely remove infobox templates. More precisely, the
templates may stay, but the code that places them in the article can be
removed.

Let me explain: Wikidata makes it possible to write an infobox without any
parameters - just {{Infobox settlement}} without any |, = and all that.
Wikidata even has a property called "infobox's main topic", a kind of
"meta-property" that can automatically identify which infobox does the
article need, so that you can simply say something like {{Infobox}}. This
is implemented in the Russian Wikipedia using
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Module:Universal_infocard , which is used on
hundreds of articles there. So it hasn't replaced the usual templates yet,
but the theoretical possibility is there.

Thus, the only thing left to the editor's discretion is where to place the
infobox.

This, however, can be handled by Winter. Winter puts infobox-like
information on the info rail*, and if we plan to be bold enough to take it
completely out of the article's prose flow, why not just remove it from the
article completely? If an article has an appropriate infobox template, it
is shown on the info rail, and that is it. (The Community will then ask for
the __NOINFOBOX__ magic word, but that's a minor thing.)

Thoughts?

* That's how I call the "right rail" until there is consensus on a better
name. See
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/design/2014-August/001897.html

--
Amir Elisha Aharoni Â· ×Öž×ÖŽ××š ×Ö±×ÖŽ××©×Öž×¢ ×Ö·×Ö²×š×Ö¹× ÖŽ×
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
âªâWe're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.â â T. Mooreâ¬
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/design/attachments/20140813/dd611c5f/attachment-0001.html>

Jon Robson

2014-08-12 21:44:48 UTC

Permalink

Infoboxes cause a huge problem on mobile and I've been asking us to be
guinea pigs for this sort of thing.

I would like mobile to scrub infoboxes and then generate them in a
more appropriate place in the UI using Wikidata. I was told this would
be controversial though...

On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 2:26 PM, Amir E. Aharoni

Post by Amir E. Aharoni
Just an idea inspired by Brandon's Wikimania talk and some discussions at
Wikidata-L: We can completely remove infobox templates. More precisely, the
templates may stay, but the code that places them in the article can be
removed.
Let me explain: Wikidata makes it possible to write an infobox without any
parameters - just {{Infobox settlement}} without any |, = and all that.
Wikidata even has a property called "infobox's main topic", a kind of
"meta-property" that can automatically identify which infobox does the
article need, so that you can simply say something like {{Infobox}}. This is
implemented in the Russian Wikipedia using
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Module:Universal_infocard , which is used on
hundreds of articles there. So it hasn't replaced the usual templates yet,
but the theoretical possibility is there.
Thus, the only thing left to the editor's discretion is where to place the
infobox.
This, however, can be handled by Winter. Winter puts infobox-like
information on the info rail*, and if we plan to be bold enough to take it
completely out of the article's prose flow, why not just remove it from the
article completely? If an article has an appropriate infobox template, it is
shown on the info rail, and that is it. (The Community will then ask for the
__NOINFOBOX__ magic word, but that's a minor thing.)
Thoughts?
* That's how I call the "right rail" until there is consensus on a better
name. See
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/design/2014-August/001897.html
--
Amir Elisha Aharoni Â· ×Öž×ÖŽ××š ×Ö±×ÖŽ××©×Öž×¢ ×Ö·×Ö²×š×Ö¹× ÖŽ×
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
âªâWe're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.â â T. Mooreâ¬
_______________________________________________
Design mailing list
Design at lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design

--
Jon Robson
* http://jonrobson.me.uk
* https://www.facebook.com/jonrobson
* @rakugojon

Monte Hurd

2014-08-12 22:17:12 UTC

Permalink

+1 Jon

Post by Jon Robson
Infoboxes cause a huge problem on mobile and I've been asking us to be
guinea pigs for this sort of thing.
I would like mobile to scrub infoboxes and then generate them in a
more appropriate place in the UI using Wikidata. I was told this would
be controversial though...
On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 2:26 PM, Amir E. Aharoni

--
Jon Robson
* http://jonrobson.me.uk
* https://www.facebook.com/jonrobson
_______________________________________________
Design mailing list
Design at lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design

Derk-Jan Hartman

2014-08-12 22:56:07 UTC

Permalink

It is problematic, because of two things:

1: you take away editorial control from the community (what fact gets shown and what doesn't and for what reasons). you will have to work on providing editorial controls to do basic manipulation of this.
2: Editors can no longer override WikiData, which is a separate community. You will have to work on bridging the interaction gap between those two sites (we see similar problems with Commons, though they have been mild by stuff "just being an image".

DJ

Post by Monte Hurd
+1 Jon

_______________________________________________
Design mailing list
Design at lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 801 bytes
Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/design/attachments/20140813/37d28afa/attachment.pgp>

Jon Robson

2014-08-13 00:16:58 UTC

Permalink

If we believe Wikidata and structured data is the way forward though I
think we should `be strong` [1] and help lead the community in this
direction.

I think mobile could be a safe place to test this, and to respond to
community desires and need for customisation of infoboxes and at the
same time increase the growth and success of Wikidata.

I am wearing my 'be optimistic' t-shirt today... :)

([1] my take on `be bold` - the <b> tag took on new meaning in HTML5
and I think it's meaning is a little deprecated in the wiki sense and
needs updating ;-))

On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 3:56 PM, Derk-Jan Hartman

Post by Derk-Jan Hartman
1: you take away editorial control from the community (what fact gets shown and what doesn't and for what reasons). you will have to work on providing editorial controls to do basic manipulation of this.
2: Editors can no longer override WikiData, which is a separate community. You will have to work on bridging the interaction gap between those two sites (we see similar problems with Commons, though they have been mild by stuff "just being an image".
DJ

Post by Monte Hurd
+1 Jon

_______________________________________________
Design mailing list
Design at lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design

--
Jon Robson
* http://jonrobson.me.uk
* https://www.facebook.com/jonrobson
* @rakugojon

quiddity

2014-08-13 00:38:30 UTC

Permalink

The visual way the content is displayed should not be controversial. It
only gets complicated if the developers/designers start making
editorial-decisions about *what information* should be inside the infobox
(without tons of input from the editors).
Ie.
* Changing the look would be relatively easy. (Making the
sections/items/images/captions clearer, changing the box design including
header-background-color, etc)

* Changing the method for entering infobox-content might be complicated,
depending on how much editors have to learn new workflows, or overhaul
millions of existing pages. But it should be achievable, because there's a
wide agreement that having ~100 lines of template code at the top of
articles is not ideal. (We could change this fairly easily, e.g. with
subpage transclusion but...:

* Changing where the infomation is stored is very complicated, because
anything that separates content from the central page that the editors are
watchlisting, suddenly becomes a lot more susceptible to
vandalism/inaccuracy, due to lack of scrutiny. There is an option in
Special:preferences to "Show Wikidata edits in your watchlist" - but I find
using this tends to be a bit annoying, because of the uninformative
edit-summaries and lack of navpopups support for diff-links (so I have
visit every change, to see what it did).

* Changing what information is included in an article/infobox, should be
left in the hands of the editors. (With discussion encouraged, and change
being possible; but it would need to be a very well-researched and
cross-wiki discussion)

I would suggest that as a first step: someone needs to do a deep-dive into
exactly how many items there are in
https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q16
vs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada 's (infobox)
etc: for a handful of topics, and language-projects.

(exhaustion disclaimer. Jet-lagged and not thinking clearly)

Post by Amir E. Aharoni
Just an idea inspired by Brandon's Wikimania talk and some discussions at
Wikidata-L: We can completely remove infobox templates. More precisely,

the

Post by Amir E. Aharoni
templates may stay, but the code that places them in the article can be
removed.
Let me explain: Wikidata makes it possible to write an infobox without

any

Post by Amir E. Aharoni
parameters - just {{Infobox settlement}} without any |, = and all that.
Wikidata even has a property called "infobox's main topic", a kind of
"meta-property" that can automatically identify which infobox does the
article need, so that you can simply say something like {{Infobox}}.

This is

Post by Amir E. Aharoni
implemented in the Russian Wikipedia using
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Module:Universal_infocard , which is used

Post by Amir E. Aharoni
hundreds of articles there. So it hasn't replaced the usual templates

yet,

Post by Amir E. Aharoni
but the theoretical possibility is there.
Thus, the only thing left to the editor's discretion is where to place

the

Post by Amir E. Aharoni
infobox.
This, however, can be handled by Winter. Winter puts infobox-like
information on the info rail*, and if we plan to be bold enough to take

Post by Amir E. Aharoni
completely out of the article's prose flow, why not just remove it from

the

Post by Amir E. Aharoni
article completely? If an article has an appropriate infobox template,

it is

Post by Amir E. Aharoni
shown on the info rail, and that is it. (The Community will then ask for

the

Post by Amir E. Aharoni
__NOINFOBOX__ magic word, but that's a minor thing.)
Thoughts?
* That's how I call the "right rail" until there is consensus on a better
name. See
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/design/2014-August/001897.html
--
Amir Elisha Aharoni Â· ×Öž×ÖŽ××š ×Ö±×ÖŽ××©×Öž×¢ ×Ö·×Ö²×š×Ö¹× ÖŽ×
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
âªâWe're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.â â T. Mooreâ¬
_______________________________________________
Design mailing list
Design at lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/design/attachments/20140812/0aae9bda/attachment.html>

Erwin Dokter

2014-08-13 08:34:01 UTC

Permalink

What quidity said...

Wikidata is a great concept for storing data, but it is basically hell
for editors wanting to manage that data.

I think Wikidata's priority should be Wikipedia *integration*, where an
"edit data" button or link of some sort will open a screen where the
data can be edited, without having to leave the site itself. Only then
should you think about even removing templates.

Regards,

--
Erwin Dokter

Amir E. Aharoni

2014-08-13 09:20:53 UTC

Permalink

Post by Erwin Dokter
What quidity said...
Wikidata is a great concept for storing data, but it is basically hell for
editors wanting to manage that data.
I think Wikidata's priority should be Wikipedia *integration*, where an
"edit data" button or link of some sort will open a screen where the data
can be edited, without having to leave the site itself. Only then should
you think about even removing templates.

I agree; see the other thread about Wikidata and VE integration.

I am suggesting this as a goal to consider, not as a thing to do
immediately.

--
Amir Elisha Aharoni Â· ×Öž×ÖŽ××š ×Ö±×ÖŽ××©×Öž×¢ ×Ö·×Ö²×š×Ö¹× ÖŽ×
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
âªâWe're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.â â T. Mooreâ¬
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/design/attachments/20140813/3b243c5e/attachment.html>

Monte Hurd

2014-08-13 09:35:56 UTC

Permalink

If ever there was a use-case for presenting infobox data with a different
MVC view (which is now actually possible), wouldn't it be in mobile?

On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 10:20 AM, Amir E. Aharoni <

Post by Amir E. Aharoni

Post by Erwin Dokter
What quidity said...
Wikidata is a great concept for storing data, but it is basically hell
for editors wanting to manage that data.
I think Wikidata's priority should be Wikipedia *integration*, where an
"edit data" button or link of some sort will open a screen where the data
can be edited, without having to leave the site itself. Only then should
you think about even removing templates.

I agree; see the other thread about Wikidata and VE integration.
I am suggesting this as a goal to consider, not as a thing to do
immediately.
--
Amir Elisha Aharoni Â· ×Öž×ÖŽ××š ×Ö±×ÖŽ××©×Öž×¢ ×Ö·×Ö²×š×Ö¹× ÖŽ×
http://aharoni.wordpress.com
âªâWe're living in pieces,
I want to live in peace.â â T. Mooreâ¬
_______________________________________________
Design mailing list
Design at lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/design/attachments/20140813/bd465a9b/attachment-0001.html>