Discussion:
[Design] Typography update leftovers
Jon Robson
2014-03-28 23:58:06 UTC
Permalink
Since the typography update got pushed we are now left with
* Changes to the table of contents
* Changes to thumbnails
* A cleanup of external links.

What should we do with these remaining changes?
We could either
1) Package them into a single new beta feature
2) Package each of them into individual beta features e.g. Vector
table of contents tweaks, Vector thumbnail tweaks, Vector external
links tweaks
3) Submit each of these as patches to Gerrit (unless there are any complaints)
4) Throw them away

Thoughts?
Steven Walling
2014-03-29 00:02:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon Robson
3) Submit each of these as patches to Gerrit (unless there are any complaints)
This is my suggestion.

Some of these are pretty uncontroversial, like the TOC and the external
links change (which is a performance improvement and not a single beat
tester said anything negative about). Others of these require more thought,
like the thumbnail style and the blockquote styles. The easy ones should
just be iterated on a bit, and each submitted as patches separately to
discuss and potentially merge.
--
Steven Walling,
Product Manager
https://wikimediafoundation.org/
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Quiddity
2014-03-29 01:36:55 UTC
Permalink
First, the happy feedback:
The Thumbnail styles are currently being discussed at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:VPT#New_image_thumb_design
Onwiki feedback, and further ideas, encouraged!
Post by Jon Robson
3) Submit each of these as patches to Gerrit (unless there are any complaints)
This is my suggestion.
Some of these are pretty uncontroversial, like the TOC and the external
links change (which is a performance improvement and not a single beat
tester said anything negative about). Others of these require more
thought, like the thumbnail style and the blockquote styles. The easy
ones should just be iterated on a bit, and each submitted as patches
separately to discuss and potentially merge.
The ToC changes were not uncontroversial.

*
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Typography_refresh/Archive_2#TOC_broken
*
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Typography_refresh/Archive_2#I_don.27t_like_the_minimalist_styling

The lack of bullet points becomes a problem when linewrap occurs, eg.
Loading Image... vs Loading Image...

The lack of numbers will cause issues for the 31,636[1] users who have
the "Auto-number headings" userpreference enabled at Enwiki (plus more
elsewhere).

I still suggest using this code, which results in this look:
Loading Image...
* Tweak Table of Contents boxes, to have smaller grey numbers and
dot-suffixes */
.tocnumber:after, .mw-headline-number:after { content: "." }
.tocnumber, .mw-headline-number { font-size: 80% !important; color:#333
!important;}

Or, at minimum, move the ToC-numbering into the code for the
"Auto-number headings" preference (a logical home), and just use
bulletpoints for the default, as lists generally do. Style them however
wanted, but we need /something/.

[1] https://trello.com/c/tIsqX5LB/123-numberheadings-research-for-nick

-----

The external link icon changes are not uncontroversial.

nb. This is related to: Loading Image... (current vs
Typography refresh/VectorBeta)

This was last discussed here
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/design/2013-October/001039.html (my
post, mid-way in thread) and the only thing there seemed to be consensus
on was: replacing the yellow https icon with either the blue-colored one
or the plain external link one.

I think the Principle of Least Astonishment applies to many of those
ext-link icons, such as the media links which might trigger the
auto-playing of a loud audio sample. Definitely some of them are ripe
for removal (such as "news:" links), but not all, and it's worth
discussing them properly before deciding.

Where is the current CSS code for this stored? (both gitblit and/or onwiki)

and how cross-wiki is the complexity?
(ie. are there local CSS files at dozens of wikis which might have
different icons? All I can find easily is the linked Italian one
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aiuto:Icone_dei_link_esterni

Would "Merging" icons/rules also be a possibility and helpful for
reducing CSS payload size? e.g. 1 "media" icon, instead of 2 for "audio"
and "video"

Sidenote mostly for interest/comparison: Monobook (& Modern) uses a
different set of icons:
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Help:External_link_icons&useskin=monobook


*TL;DR*: I'm 110% in favour of replacing the yellow padlock with the
blue padlock. The rest should probably be split out, and given a brief
discussion onwiki, listing pros & cons.
I'd personally strongly support some changes, and weakly oppose other
changes.


--Quiddity
Steven Walling
2014-03-29 01:39:18 UTC
Permalink
I don't really think those things about TOC and external links are a big
deal or blockers. They seem pretty nit-picky to me.
Post by Quiddity
The Thumbnail styles are currently being discussed at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:VPT#New_image_thumb_design
Onwiki feedback, and further ideas, encouraged!
Post by Jon Robson
3) Submit each of these as patches to Gerrit (unless there are any complaints)
This is my suggestion.
Some of these are pretty uncontroversial, like the TOC and the external
links change (which is a performance improvement and not a single beat
tester said anything negative about). Others of these require more
thought, like the thumbnail style and the blockquote styles. The easy
ones should just be iterated on a bit, and each submitted as patches
separately to discuss and potentially merge.
The ToC changes were not uncontroversial.
* https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Typography_refresh/
Archive_2#TOC_broken
* https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Typography_refresh/
Archive_2#I_don.27t_like_the_minimalist_styling
The lack of bullet points becomes a problem when linewrap occurs, eg.
http://i.imgur.com/uBpLLuZ.png vs http://i.imgur.com/RI9ZSBL.png
The lack of numbers will cause issues for the 31,636[1] users who have the
"Auto-number headings" userpreference enabled at Enwiki (plus more
elsewhere).
http://i.imgur.com/k3ipFKz.png
* Tweak Table of Contents boxes, to have smaller grey numbers and
dot-suffixes */
.tocnumber:after, .mw-headline-number:after { content: "." }
.tocnumber, .mw-headline-number { font-size: 80% !important; color:#333
!important;}
Or, at minimum, move the ToC-numbering into the code for the "Auto-number
headings" preference (a logical home), and just use bulletpoints for the
default, as lists generally do. Style them however wanted, but we need
/something/.
[1] https://trello.com/c/tIsqX5LB/123-numberheadings-research-for-nick
-----
The external link icon changes are not uncontroversial.
nb. This is related to: http://i.imgur.com/VU0Ezcn.png (current vs
Typography refresh/VectorBeta)
This was last discussed here http://lists.wikimedia.org/
pipermail/design/2013-October/001039.html (my post, mid-way in thread)
and the only thing there seemed to be consensus on was: replacing the
yellow https icon with either the blue-colored one or the plain external
link one.
I think the Principle of Least Astonishment applies to many of those
ext-link icons, such as the media links which might trigger the
auto-playing of a loud audio sample. Definitely some of them are ripe for
removal (such as "news:" links), but not all, and it's worth discussing
them properly before deciding.
Where is the current CSS code for this stored? (both gitblit and/or onwiki)
and how cross-wiki is the complexity?
(ie. are there local CSS files at dozens of wikis which might have
different icons? All I can find easily is the linked Italian one
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aiuto:Icone_dei_link_esterni
Would "Merging" icons/rules also be a possibility and helpful for reducing
CSS payload size? e.g. 1 "media" icon, instead of 2 for "audio" and "video"
Sidenote mostly for interest/comparison: Monobook (& Modern) uses a
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Help:External_
link_icons&useskin=monobook
*TL;DR*: I'm 110% in favour of replacing the yellow padlock with the blue
padlock. The rest should probably be split out, and given a brief
discussion onwiki, listing pros & cons.
I'd personally strongly support some changes, and weakly oppose other
changes.
--Quiddity
_______________________________________________
Design mailing list
Design at lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
--
Steven Walling,
Product Manager
https://wikimediafoundation.org/
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Jared Zimmerman
2014-03-29 02:15:59 UTC
Permalink
I think James's suggestions are good, perhaps we could go further with the image changes (I'll find my conversation with the multimedia team) and roll it out as a small beta feature owned by that team?

We can talk further with the multimedia PM?

Sent while mobile

On Mar 28, 2014, at 6:39 PM, Steven Walling <swalling at wikimedia.org> wrote:

I don't really think those things about TOC and external links are a big deal or blockers. They seem pretty nit-picky to me.
Post by Quiddity
The Thumbnail styles are currently being discussed at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:VPT#New_image_thumb_design
Onwiki feedback, and further ideas, encouraged!
Post by Jon Robson
3) Submit each of these as patches to Gerrit (unless there are any complaints)
This is my suggestion.
Some of these are pretty uncontroversial, like the TOC and the external
links change (which is a performance improvement and not a single beat
tester said anything negative about). Others of these require more
thought, like the thumbnail style and the blockquote styles. The easy
ones should just be iterated on a bit, and each submitted as patches
separately to discuss and potentially merge.
The ToC changes were not uncontroversial.
* https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Typography_refresh/Archive_2#TOC_broken
* https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Typography_refresh/Archive_2#I_don.27t_like_the_minimalist_styling
The lack of bullet points becomes a problem when linewrap occurs, eg.
http://i.imgur.com/uBpLLuZ.png vs http://i.imgur.com/RI9ZSBL.png
The lack of numbers will cause issues for the 31,636[1] users who have the "Auto-number headings" userpreference enabled at Enwiki (plus more elsewhere).
http://i.imgur.com/k3ipFKz.png
* Tweak Table of Contents boxes, to have smaller grey numbers and dot-suffixes */
.tocnumber:after, .mw-headline-number:after { content: "." }
.tocnumber, .mw-headline-number { font-size: 80% !important; color:#333 !important;}
Or, at minimum, move the ToC-numbering into the code for the "Auto-number headings" preference (a logical home), and just use bulletpoints for the default, as lists generally do. Style them however wanted, but we need /something/.
[1] https://trello.com/c/tIsqX5LB/123-numberheadings-research-for-nick
-----
The external link icon changes are not uncontroversial.
nb. This is related to: http://i.imgur.com/VU0Ezcn.png (current vs Typography refresh/VectorBeta)
This was last discussed here http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/design/2013-October/001039.html (my post, mid-way in thread) and the only thing there seemed to be consensus on was: replacing the yellow https icon with either the blue-colored one or the plain external link one.
I think the Principle of Least Astonishment applies to many of those ext-link icons, such as the media links which might trigger the auto-playing of a loud audio sample. Definitely some of them are ripe for removal (such as "news:" links), but not all, and it's worth discussing them properly before deciding.
Where is the current CSS code for this stored? (both gitblit and/or onwiki)
and how cross-wiki is the complexity?
(ie. are there local CSS files at dozens of wikis which might have different icons? All I can find easily is the linked Italian one
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aiuto:Icone_dei_link_esterni
Would "Merging" icons/rules also be a possibility and helpful for reducing CSS payload size? e.g. 1 "media" icon, instead of 2 for "audio" and "video"
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Help:External_link_icons&useskin=monobook
*TL;DR*: I'm 110% in favour of replacing the yellow padlock with the blue padlock. The rest should probably be split out, and given a brief discussion onwiki, listing pros & cons.
I'd personally strongly support some changes, and weakly oppose other changes.
--Quiddity
_______________________________________________
Design mailing list
Design at lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
--
Steven Walling,
Product Manager
https://wikimediafoundation.org/
_______________________________________________
Design mailing list
Design at lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
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Greg Grossmeier
2014-03-29 03:55:38 UTC
Permalink
<quote name="Steven Walling" date="2014-03-28" time="18:39:18 -0700">
Post by Steven Walling
I don't really think those things about TOC and external links are a big
deal or blockers. They seem pretty nit-picky to me.
For what it's worth, the TOC change is what made me disable TypoRefresh
on mw.org so I could continue editing my project pages without getting
frustrated (which is also why I didn't notice it wasn't removed in
time...)
--
| Greg Grossmeier GPG: B2FA 27B1 F7EB D327 6B8E |
| identi.ca: @greg A18D 1138 8E47 FAC8 1C7D |
Jared Zimmerman
2014-03-29 05:52:24 UTC
Permalink
"For what it's worth"
Its not worth much to anyone if you don't suggest a fix, or let us know why
it was an issue for you. :)



*Jared Zimmerman * \\ Director of User Experience \\ Wikimedia Foundation
Post by Greg Grossmeier
<quote name="Steven Walling" date="2014-03-28" time="18:39:18 -0700">
Post by Steven Walling
I don't really think those things about TOC and external links are a big
deal or blockers. They seem pretty nit-picky to me.
For what it's worth, the TOC change is what made me disable TypoRefresh
on mw.org so I could continue editing my project pages without getting
frustrated (which is also why I didn't notice it wasn't removed in
time...)
--
| Greg Grossmeier GPG: B2FA 27B1 F7EB D327 6B8E |
_______________________________________________
Design mailing list
Design at lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
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Katie Filbert
2014-03-29 05:56:31 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 6:52 AM, Jared Zimmerman <
Post by Jared Zimmerman
"For what it's worth"
Its not worth much to anyone if you don't suggest a fix, or let us know
why it was an issue for you. :)
Here's a fix (tweak)! :)

https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/121915/

I don't know what issue Greg has, but what I fixed is the issue I see.

(ps. mainly done as volunteer, but I think is also the right thing for
Wikidata / Wikibase layout)

Cheers,
Katie
Post by Jared Zimmerman
*Jared Zimmerman * \\ Director of User Experience \\ Wikimedia Foundation
Post by Greg Grossmeier
<quote name="Steven Walling" date="2014-03-28" time="18:39:18 -0700">
Post by Steven Walling
I don't really think those things about TOC and external links are a big
deal or blockers. They seem pretty nit-picky to me.
For what it's worth, the TOC change is what made me disable TypoRefresh
on mw.org so I could continue editing my project pages without getting
frustrated (which is also why I didn't notice it wasn't removed in
time...)
--
| Greg Grossmeier GPG: B2FA 27B1 F7EB D327 6B8E |
_______________________________________________
Design mailing list
Design at lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
_______________________________________________
Design mailing list
Design at lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
--
Katie Filbert
Wikidata Developer

Wikimedia Germany e.V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24, 10963 Berlin
Phone (030) 219 158 26-0

http://wikimedia.de

Wikimedia Germany - Society for the Promotion of free knowledge eV Entered
in the register of Amtsgericht Berlin-Charlottenburg under the number 23
855 as recognized as charitable by the Inland Revenue for corporations I
Berlin, tax number 27/681/51985.
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Jared Zimmerman
2014-03-29 05:58:00 UTC
Permalink
Katie, can you send a before and after screenshot, or links to them, since
this is a visual issue (on a design list) thanks!



*Jared Zimmerman * \\ Director of User Experience \\ Wikimedia Foundation

M : +1 415 609 4043 | : @JaredZimmerman<https://twitter.com/JaredZimmerman>



On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 10:56 PM, Katie Filbert
Post by Katie Filbert
On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 6:52 AM, Jared Zimmerman <
Post by Jared Zimmerman
"For what it's worth"
Its not worth much to anyone if you don't suggest a fix, or let us know
why it was an issue for you. :)
Here's a fix (tweak)! :)
https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/121915/
I don't know what issue Greg has, but what I fixed is the issue I see.
(ps. mainly done as volunteer, but I think is also the right thing for
Wikidata / Wikibase layout)
Cheers,
Katie
Post by Jared Zimmerman
*Jared Zimmerman * \\ Director of User Experience \\ Wikimedia Foundation
Post by Greg Grossmeier
<quote name="Steven Walling" date="2014-03-28" time="18:39:18 -0700">
Post by Steven Walling
I don't really think those things about TOC and external links are a
big
Post by Steven Walling
deal or blockers. They seem pretty nit-picky to me.
For what it's worth, the TOC change is what made me disable TypoRefresh
on mw.org so I could continue editing my project pages without getting
frustrated (which is also why I didn't notice it wasn't removed in
time...)
--
| Greg Grossmeier GPG: B2FA 27B1 F7EB D327 6B8E |
_______________________________________________
Design mailing list
Design at lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
_______________________________________________
Design mailing list
Design at lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
--
Katie Filbert
Wikidata Developer
Wikimedia Germany e.V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24, 10963 Berlin
Phone (030) 219 158 26-0
http://wikimedia.de
Wikimedia Germany - Society for the Promotion of free knowledge eV Entered
in the register of Amtsgericht Berlin-Charlottenburg under the number 23
855 as recognized as charitable by the Inland Revenue for corporations I
Berlin, tax number 27/681/51985.
_______________________________________________
Design mailing list
Design at lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
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Katie Filbert
2014-03-29 06:01:51 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 6:58 AM, Jared Zimmerman <
Post by Jared Zimmerman
Katie, can you send a before and after screenshot, or links to them, since
this is a visual issue (on a design list) thanks!
Loading Image... (before)

Loading Image... (after)

Cheers,
Katie
Post by Jared Zimmerman
*Jared Zimmerman * \\ Director of User Experience \\ Wikimedia Foundation
On Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 10:56 PM, Katie Filbert <
Post by Katie Filbert
On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 6:52 AM, Jared Zimmerman <
Post by Jared Zimmerman
"For what it's worth"
Its not worth much to anyone if you don't suggest a fix, or let us
know why it was an issue for you. :)
Here's a fix (tweak)! :)
https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/121915/
I don't know what issue Greg has, but what I fixed is the issue I see.
(ps. mainly done as volunteer, but I think is also the right thing for
Wikidata / Wikibase layout)
Cheers,
Katie
Post by Jared Zimmerman
*Jared Zimmerman * \\ Director of User Experience \\ Wikimedia Foundation
Post by Greg Grossmeier
<quote name="Steven Walling" date="2014-03-28" time="18:39:18 -0700">
Post by Steven Walling
I don't really think those things about TOC and external links are a
big
Post by Steven Walling
deal or blockers. They seem pretty nit-picky to me.
For what it's worth, the TOC change is what made me disable TypoRefresh
on mw.org so I could continue editing my project pages without getting
frustrated (which is also why I didn't notice it wasn't removed in
time...)
--
| Greg Grossmeier GPG: B2FA 27B1 F7EB D327 6B8E |
_______________________________________________
Design mailing list
Design at lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
_______________________________________________
Design mailing list
Design at lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
--
Katie Filbert
Wikidata Developer
Wikimedia Germany e.V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24, 10963 Berlin
Phone (030) 219 158 26-0
http://wikimedia.de
Wikimedia Germany - Society for the Promotion of free knowledge eV
Entered in the register of Amtsgericht Berlin-Charlottenburg under the
number 23 855 as recognized as charitable by the Inland Revenue for
corporations I Berlin, tax number 27/681/51985.
_______________________________________________
Design mailing list
Design at lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
_______________________________________________
Design mailing list
Design at lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
--
Katie Filbert
Wikidata Developer

Wikimedia Germany e.V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24, 10963 Berlin
Phone (030) 219 158 26-0

http://wikimedia.de

Wikimedia Germany - Society for the Promotion of free knowledge eV Entered
in the register of Amtsgericht Berlin-Charlottenburg under the number 23
855 as recognized as charitable by the Inland Revenue for corporations I
Berlin, tax number 27/681/51985.
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Katie Filbert
2014-03-29 05:59:19 UTC
Permalink
PS. I'll need to read through the village pump to understand the other
issues and not sure what/how I can help with those.

generally, the new design for the TOC seems nice.

Cheers,
Katie

On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 6:56 AM, Katie Filbert
Post by Katie Filbert
On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 6:52 AM, Jared Zimmerman <
Post by Jared Zimmerman
"For what it's worth"
Its not worth much to anyone if you don't suggest a fix, or let us know
why it was an issue for you. :)
Here's a fix (tweak)! :)
https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/121915/
I don't know what issue Greg has, but what I fixed is the issue I see.
(ps. mainly done as volunteer, but I think is also the right thing for
Wikidata / Wikibase layout)
Cheers,
Katie
Post by Jared Zimmerman
*Jared Zimmerman * \\ Director of User Experience \\ Wikimedia Foundation
Post by Greg Grossmeier
<quote name="Steven Walling" date="2014-03-28" time="18:39:18 -0700">
Post by Steven Walling
I don't really think those things about TOC and external links are a
big
Post by Steven Walling
deal or blockers. They seem pretty nit-picky to me.
For what it's worth, the TOC change is what made me disable TypoRefresh
on mw.org so I could continue editing my project pages without getting
frustrated (which is also why I didn't notice it wasn't removed in
time...)
--
| Greg Grossmeier GPG: B2FA 27B1 F7EB D327 6B8E |
_______________________________________________
Design mailing list
Design at lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
_______________________________________________
Design mailing list
Design at lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
--
Katie Filbert
Wikidata Developer
Wikimedia Germany e.V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24, 10963 Berlin
Phone (030) 219 158 26-0
http://wikimedia.de
Wikimedia Germany - Society for the Promotion of free knowledge eV Entered
in the register of Amtsgericht Berlin-Charlottenburg under the number 23
855 as recognized as charitable by the Inland Revenue for corporations I
Berlin, tax number 27/681/51985.
--
Katie Filbert
Wikidata Developer

Wikimedia Germany e.V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24, 10963 Berlin
Phone (030) 219 158 26-0

http://wikimedia.de

Wikimedia Germany - Society for the Promotion of free knowledge eV Entered
in the register of Amtsgericht Berlin-Charlottenburg under the number 23
855 as recognized as charitable by the Inland Revenue for corporations I
Berlin, tax number 27/681/51985.
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Greg Grossmeier
2014-03-29 16:36:34 UTC
Permalink
<quote name="Jared Zimmerman" date="2014-03-28" time="22:52:24 -0700">
Post by Jared Zimmerman
"For what it's worth"
Its not worth much to anyone if you don't suggest a fix, or let us know why
it was an issue for you. :)
Yeah, as I was laying down for bed after sending this (I felt sick
yesterday) I thought how my message was only 25% worth it :)

So, why:

Because the numbering helps me quickly scan pages like:
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Release_and_QA_Team

Since TypoRefresh is gone from mw.org, see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Greg_%28WMF%29/Example

And now I can't easily find the other pages that looked bad for me
because TypoRefresh isn't there (all on mw.org...) But basically any
pages that heavily use outlines (3 or so levels deep), like is common on
documentation/work pages (not as common on encyclopedia articles).
Sphinx (the python doc generator) does the same, see eg:
http://docs.python.org/2.7/library/index.html

Even the PHP manual gives you a visual anchor (the bullet):
http://www.php.net/manual/en/

Summary: When there are many sub-sections listed on a page, it causes
the TOC to have a ton of sub-bullets. The human eye (at least mine, and
I think others based on some of the feedback on this) likes to have
something to hold on to as it scrolls down (bullet, number, something)
not white space, so that it doesn't lose/forget which level of
indentation it was it. To wit: I find myself very confused when looking
at eg the Rel&QA team page above because of the lack of grounding on the
left.

Because of that, I'd strongly advice against the TOC change be included
on mw.org since mw.org is definitely in group A (docs) not group B
(encyc).
--
| Greg Grossmeier GPG: B2FA 27B1 F7EB D327 6B8E |
| identi.ca: @greg A18D 1138 8E47 FAC8 1C7D |
Isarra Yos
2014-03-29 16:37:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jared Zimmerman
"For what it's worth"
Its not worth much to anyone if you don't suggest a fix, or let us
know why it was an issue for you. :)
Quiddity already suggested a fix and explained why it would be an issue;
this was dismissed as 'nitpicky'. Greg was giving an example of how it
is not just being nitpicky, but negatively impacts usability.

-I
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Katie Filbert
2014-03-29 06:28:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quiddity
The Thumbnail styles are currently being discussed at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:VPT#New_image_thumb_design
Onwiki feedback, and further ideas, encouraged!
Post by Jon Robson
3) Submit each of these as patches to Gerrit (unless there are any complaints)
This is my suggestion.
Some of these are pretty uncontroversial, like the TOC and the external
links change (which is a performance improvement and not a single beat
tester said anything negative about). Others of these require more
thought, like the thumbnail style and the blockquote styles. The easy
ones should just be iterated on a bit, and each submitted as patches
separately to discuss and potentially merge.
The ToC changes were not uncontroversial.
* https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Typography_refresh/
Archive_2#TOC_broken
* https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Typography_refresh/
Archive_2#I_don.27t_like_the_minimalist_styling
The lack of bullet points becomes a problem when linewrap occurs, eg.
http://i.imgur.com/uBpLLuZ.png vs http://i.imgur.com/RI9ZSBL.png
The lack of numbers will cause issues for the 31,636[1] users who have the
"Auto-number headings" userpreference enabled at Enwiki (plus more
elsewhere).
http://i.imgur.com/k3ipFKz.png
* Tweak Table of Contents boxes, to have smaller grey numbers and
dot-suffixes */
.tocnumber:after, .mw-headline-number:after { content: "." }
.tocnumber, .mw-headline-number { font-size: 80% !important; color:#333
!important;}
While maybe not perfect, something like that seems ok to me, makes the TOC
less radical of a change and think the community would be more agreeable to
the change.

Perhaps further iterations and design tweaks can happen at a later stage.

Cheers,
Katie
Post by Quiddity
Or, at minimum, move the ToC-numbering into the code for the "Auto-number
headings" preference (a logical home), and just use bulletpoints for the
default, as lists generally do. Style them however wanted, but we need
/something/.
[1] https://trello.com/c/tIsqX5LB/123-numberheadings-research-for-nick
-----
The external link icon changes are not uncontroversial.
nb. This is related to: http://i.imgur.com/VU0Ezcn.png (current vs
Typography refresh/VectorBeta)
This was last discussed here http://lists.wikimedia.org/
pipermail/design/2013-October/001039.html (my post, mid-way in thread)
and the only thing there seemed to be consensus on was: replacing the
yellow https icon with either the blue-colored one or the plain external
link one.
I think the Principle of Least Astonishment applies to many of those
ext-link icons, such as the media links which might trigger the
auto-playing of a loud audio sample. Definitely some of them are ripe for
removal (such as "news:" links), but not all, and it's worth discussing
them properly before deciding.
Where is the current CSS code for this stored? (both gitblit and/or onwiki)
and how cross-wiki is the complexity?
(ie. are there local CSS files at dozens of wikis which might have
different icons? All I can find easily is the linked Italian one
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aiuto:Icone_dei_link_esterni
Would "Merging" icons/rules also be a possibility and helpful for reducing
CSS payload size? e.g. 1 "media" icon, instead of 2 for "audio" and "video"
Sidenote mostly for interest/comparison: Monobook (& Modern) uses a
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Help:External_
link_icons&useskin=monobook
*TL;DR*: I'm 110% in favour of replacing the yellow padlock with the blue
padlock. The rest should probably be split out, and given a brief
discussion onwiki, listing pros & cons.
I'd personally strongly support some changes, and weakly oppose other
changes.
--Quiddity
_______________________________________________
Design mailing list
Design at lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
--
Katie Filbert
Wikidata Developer

Wikimedia Germany e.V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24, 10963 Berlin
Phone (030) 219 158 26-0

http://wikimedia.de

Wikimedia Germany - Society for the Promotion of free knowledge eV Entered
in the register of Amtsgericht Berlin-Charlottenburg under the number 23
855 as recognized as charitable by the Inland Revenue for corporations I
Berlin, tax number 27/681/51985.
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Katie Filbert
2014-03-29 13:46:42 UTC
Permalink
Thinking about this more.... I think there will be (if not already) quite a
number of community members who argue that changing the design of the TOC
doesn't fit as part of a typography update.

I'm not exactly sure the plans for deploying things for default and if it
include TOC?

If it is included, it might cause more trouble for the overall update.
Maybe there will be a second phase of design updates that can include TOC?

Cheers,
Katie


On Sat, Mar 29, 2014 at 7:28 AM, Katie Filbert
Post by Katie Filbert
Post by Quiddity
The Thumbnail styles are currently being discussed at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:VPT#New_image_thumb_design
Onwiki feedback, and further ideas, encouraged!
Post by Jon Robson
3) Submit each of these as patches to Gerrit (unless there are any complaints)
This is my suggestion.
Some of these are pretty uncontroversial, like the TOC and the external
links change (which is a performance improvement and not a single beat
tester said anything negative about). Others of these require more
thought, like the thumbnail style and the blockquote styles. The easy
ones should just be iterated on a bit, and each submitted as patches
separately to discuss and potentially merge.
The ToC changes were not uncontroversial.
* https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Typography_refresh/
Archive_2#TOC_broken
* https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Typography_refresh/
Archive_2#I_don.27t_like_the_minimalist_styling
The lack of bullet points becomes a problem when linewrap occurs, eg.
http://i.imgur.com/uBpLLuZ.png vs http://i.imgur.com/RI9ZSBL.png
The lack of numbers will cause issues for the 31,636[1] users who have
the "Auto-number headings" userpreference enabled at Enwiki (plus more
elsewhere).
http://i.imgur.com/k3ipFKz.png
* Tweak Table of Contents boxes, to have smaller grey numbers and
dot-suffixes */
.tocnumber:after, .mw-headline-number:after { content: "." }
.tocnumber, .mw-headline-number { font-size: 80% !important; color:#333
!important;}
While maybe not perfect, something like that seems ok to me, makes the TOC
less radical of a change and think the community would be more agreeable to
the change.
Perhaps further iterations and design tweaks can happen at a later stage.
Cheers,
Katie
Post by Quiddity
Or, at minimum, move the ToC-numbering into the code for the "Auto-number
headings" preference (a logical home), and just use bulletpoints for the
default, as lists generally do. Style them however wanted, but we need
/something/.
[1] https://trello.com/c/tIsqX5LB/123-numberheadings-research-for-nick
-----
The external link icon changes are not uncontroversial.
nb. This is related to: http://i.imgur.com/VU0Ezcn.png (current vs
Typography refresh/VectorBeta)
This was last discussed here http://lists.wikimedia.org/
pipermail/design/2013-October/001039.html (my post, mid-way in thread)
and the only thing there seemed to be consensus on was: replacing the
yellow https icon with either the blue-colored one or the plain external
link one.
I think the Principle of Least Astonishment applies to many of those
ext-link icons, such as the media links which might trigger the
auto-playing of a loud audio sample. Definitely some of them are ripe for
removal (such as "news:" links), but not all, and it's worth discussing
them properly before deciding.
Where is the current CSS code for this stored? (both gitblit and/or onwiki)
and how cross-wiki is the complexity?
(ie. are there local CSS files at dozens of wikis which might have
different icons? All I can find easily is the linked Italian one
https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aiuto:Icone_dei_link_esterni
Would "Merging" icons/rules also be a possibility and helpful for
reducing CSS payload size? e.g. 1 "media" icon, instead of 2 for "audio"
and "video"
Sidenote mostly for interest/comparison: Monobook (& Modern) uses a
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Help:External_
link_icons&useskin=monobook
*TL;DR*: I'm 110% in favour of replacing the yellow padlock with the blue
padlock. The rest should probably be split out, and given a brief
discussion onwiki, listing pros & cons.
I'd personally strongly support some changes, and weakly oppose other
changes.
--Quiddity
_______________________________________________
Design mailing list
Design at lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
--
Katie Filbert
Wikidata Developer
Wikimedia Germany e.V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24, 10963 Berlin
Phone (030) 219 158 26-0
http://wikimedia.de
Wikimedia Germany - Society for the Promotion of free knowledge eV Entered
in the register of Amtsgericht Berlin-Charlottenburg under the number 23
855 as recognized as charitable by the Inland Revenue for corporations I
Berlin, tax number 27/681/51985.
--
Katie Filbert
Wikidata Developer

Wikimedia Germany e.V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24, 10963 Berlin
Phone (030) 219 158 26-0

http://wikimedia.de

Wikimedia Germany - Society for the Promotion of free knowledge eV Entered
in the register of Amtsgericht Berlin-Charlottenburg under the number 23
855 as recognized as charitable by the Inland Revenue for corporations I
Berlin, tax number 27/681/51985.
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bawolff
2014-03-29 17:18:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quiddity
The Thumbnail styles are currently being discussed at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:VPT#New_image_thumb_design
Onwiki feedback, and further ideas, encouraged!
Hmm. (En) Wikinews has done something similar to that with thumbnails for
quite a while.

-bawolff
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Jon Robson
2014-04-04 01:04:20 UTC
Permalink
I've submitted external links and thumbnail changes from VectorBeta as
patches for core.
Table of contents will be addressed as part of the ongoing Winter experiment

Your help code reviewing is much appreciated.

(PS1) Jdlrobson: Port thumbnail styling from VectorBeta into Vector
[core] - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/123815
(PS1) Jdlrobson: Component common css [core] -
https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/123816
(PS1) Jdlrobson: Vector: Simply style external links [core] -
https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/123817
Post by bawolff
Post by Quiddity
The Thumbnail styles are currently being discussed at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:VPT#New_image_thumb_design
Onwiki feedback, and further ideas, encouraged!
Hmm. (En) Wikinews has done something similar to that with thumbnails for
quite a while.
-bawolff
_______________________________________________
Design mailing list
Design at lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
--
Jon Robson
* http://jonrobson.me.uk
* https://www.facebook.com/jonrobson
* @rakugojon
Jared Zimmerman
2014-04-04 01:08:52 UTC
Permalink
much appreciated. I'm +2ing in my heart



*Jared Zimmerman * \\ Director of User Experience \\ Wikimedia Foundation
Post by Jon Robson
I've submitted external links and thumbnail changes from VectorBeta as
patches for core.
Table of contents will be addressed as part of the ongoing Winter experiment
Your help code reviewing is much appreciated.
(PS1) Jdlrobson: Port thumbnail styling from VectorBeta into Vector
[core] - https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/123815
(PS1) Jdlrobson: Component common css [core] -
https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/123816
(PS1) Jdlrobson: Vector: Simply style external links [core] -
https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/123817
Post by bawolff
Post by Quiddity
The Thumbnail styles are currently being discussed at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:VPT#New_image_thumb_design
Onwiki feedback, and further ideas, encouraged!
Hmm. (En) Wikinews has done something similar to that with thumbnails for
quite a while.
-bawolff
_______________________________________________
Design mailing list
Design at lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
--
Jon Robson
* http://jonrobson.me.uk
* https://www.facebook.com/jonrobson
_______________________________________________
Design mailing list
Design at lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
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Federico Leva (Nemo)
2014-04-04 06:45:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon Robson
(PS1) Jdlrobson: Port thumbnail styling from VectorBeta into Vector
[core] -https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/123815
(PS1) Jdlrobson: Component common css [core] -
https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/123816
(PS1) Jdlrobson: Vector: Simply style external links [core] -
https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/123817
They should have associated bugzilla reports for discussion.
Thanks,
Nemo
Federico Leva (Nemo)
2014-04-04 07:20:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quiddity
The Thumbnail styles are currently being discussed at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:VPT#New_image_thumb_design
Onwiki feedback, and further ideas, encouraged!
It's now at
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28technical%29/Archive_124#New_image_thumb_design>.

And while I'm at it: I've only seen positive comments about Edokter's
thumbnail change; please file in bugzilla+gerrit for core so that it's
not forgotten.
To have additional feedback you could then make the gadget default on
en.wiki (now that it wouldn't be in the way for alternative changes),
you know better what's the local process for that.

Nemo
Jared Zimmerman
2014-04-04 08:51:42 UTC
Permalink
Nemo, we don't plan on using soft drop shadows (or gradients) anywhere in the UI going forward so the design your referring to doesn't really make a lot of sense with the direction of mediawiki.ui

Sent while mobile
Post by Quiddity
The Thumbnail styles are currently being discussed at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:VPT#New_image_thumb_design
Onwiki feedback, and further ideas, encouraged!
It's now at <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28technical%29/Archive_124#New_image_thumb_design>.

And while I'm at it: I've only seen positive comments about Edokter's thumbnail change; please file in bugzilla+gerrit for core so that it's not forgotten.
To have additional feedback you could then make the gadget default on en.wiki (now that it wouldn't be in the way for alternative changes), you know better what's the local process for that.

Nemo
Federico Leva (Nemo)
2014-04-04 13:10:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jared Zimmerman
Nemo, we don't plan on using soft drop shadows (or gradients) anywhere in the UI going forward so the design your referring to doesn't really make a lot of sense with the direction of mediawiki.ui
I don't know who is "we" but Edokter's style is certainly a valid
enhancement request that should be addressed in bugzilla.

Nemo
Jared Zimmerman
2014-04-05 03:57:47 UTC
Permalink
Nemo, when I say we, I mean the people responsible for the look and
implementation of mediawiki.ui I've also been informed by the developers
that drop shadows like the one proposed have a serious performance impact,
especially on older browsers. The proposed style shown in the typography
refresh is much simpler from a code perspective as well.



*Jared Zimmerman * \\ Director of User Experience \\ Wikimedia Foundation
Post by Jared Zimmerman
Nemo, we don't plan on using soft drop shadows (or gradients) anywhere in
Post by Jared Zimmerman
the UI going forward so the design your referring to doesn't really make a
lot of sense with the direction of mediawiki.ui
I don't know who is "we" but Edokter's style is certainly a valid
enhancement request that should be addressed in bugzilla.
Nemo
_______________________________________________
Design mailing list
Design at lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
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Jared Zimmerman
2014-04-05 19:36:43 UTC
Permalink
All the components you mentioned other than the switch to LESS and the animations used by hovercards for instance were actually created over a year ago before the start of the mediawiki.ui work. I can talk further with the developers about the performance issue, but yes, it's only part of the issue. As I said before I don't think it fits stylistically with the direction of the mediawiki.ui

Sent while mobile
Post by Jared Zimmerman
Nemo, when I say we, I mean the people responsible for the look and
implementation of mediawiki.ui I've also been informed by the developers
that drop shadows like the one proposed have a serious performance
impact, especially on older browsers. The proposed style shown in the
typography refresh is much simpler from a code perspective as well.
I find that slightly contradictory, when every new UX feature/extension has made heavy use of the newest CSS trickery, including transparency, animations, fade-ins, rounded corners and drop shadows. Everything that pops up on Wikipedia has them: Echo notification, watchlist notifications, ULS popups and everything else I can't think of.

With that in mind, the performance argument is a misnomer; older [define?] browsers tend not to support shadows anyway, so no problem there. The code is also *not* more complicated when done in LESS.

You just don't like the style, that is fine. It was intended to be a local CSS framework for templates anyway.

Regards,
--
Erwin Dokter
James Forrester
2014-03-29 00:15:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon Robson
Since the typography update got pushed we are now left with
* Changes to the table of contents
* Changes to thumbnails
* A cleanup of external links.
What should we do with these remaining changes?
We could either
1) Package them into a single new beta feature
2) Package each of them into individual beta features e.g. Vector
table of contents tweaks, Vector thumbnail tweaks, Vector external
links tweaks
3) Submit each of these as patches to Gerrit (unless there are any complaints)
4) Throw them away
​I think that the image changes should probably be a new BF ("Simpler
images" or something), as it needs some thought about changing wikitext
(and implementation for non-Vector skins). (Option 2)

The TOC and external link changes should just be made as ​patches to Vector
PDQ (Option 3); really it's going to be very confusing to add, remove, and
then re-add these changes for users who are opted-in.

J.
--
James D. Forrester
Product Manager, VisualEditor
Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.

jforrester at wikimedia.org | @jdforrester
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Jon Robson
2014-03-29 00:18:19 UTC
Permalink
In which case why didn't we just push the changes with everything
else? We must have seen some reason for them to keep out of the
typography release... was there?

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: James Forrester <jforrester at wikimedia.org>
Date: Fri, Mar 28, 2014 at 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Design] Typography update leftovers
To: "A list for the design team." <design at lists.wikimedia.org>
Post by Jon Robson
Since the typography update got pushed we are now left with
* Changes to the table of contents
* Changes to thumbnails
* A cleanup of external links.
What should we do with these remaining changes?
We could either
1) Package them into a single new beta feature
2) Package each of them into individual beta features e.g. Vector
table of contents tweaks, Vector thumbnail tweaks, Vector external
links tweaks
3) Submit each of these as patches to Gerrit (unless there are any complaints)
4) Throw them away
I think that the image changes should probably be a new BF ("Simpler
images" or something), as it needs some thought about changing
wikitext (and implementation for non-Vector skins). (Option 2)

The TOC and external link changes should just be made as patches to
Vector PDQ (Option 3); really it's going to be very confusing to add,
remove, and then re-add these changes for users who are opted-in.

J.
--
James D. Forrester
Product Manager, VisualEditor
Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.

jforrester at wikimedia.org | @jdforrester

_______________________________________________
Design mailing list
Design at lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/design
--
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* http://jonrobson.me.uk
* https://www.facebook.com/jonrobson
* @rakugojon
Steven Walling
2014-03-29 01:01:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon Robson
In which case why didn't we just push the changes with everything
else? We must have seen some reason for them to keep out of the
typography release... was there?
Yes. I brought this up publicly two weeks ago at
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Talk:Typography_refresh#Latest_release and
we've discussed it internally as an option since we started talking about
release in core.

In retrospect, it was probably a mistake to include those features in the
first place. From the start till now, I've heard pretty much universal
agreement from the community that, even if they were welcomed by some,
these felt like scope creep and confused users as to the nature of the
typography refresh. I disagreed at the time when we launched them, since I
think they're the kind of cleanup that helps improve legibility and put
content first. But users don't really see it that way in a lot of cases.
They expected a "typography refresh" to only include type changes.
--
Steven Walling,
Product Manager
https://wikimediafoundation.org/
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